And so we arrive at Week 15 of Reading The Wheel of Time! It’s a wordy one this week, lots of exposition, and my fingers are tired from typing it all out! Still, despite these chapters being a bit of an info dump, it’s been really nice to get some clarity on certain events, and I am quite happy to see the gang all back together again.
Rand runs all the way back to the inn, and goes straight to the library to find Master Gill, who is playing stones with Loial. He tells them everything, except what Elaida whispered to him and the fact that Gawyn thought that he looked like an Aielman. After hearing everything, Gill tells Rand that he can no longer sit in Caemlyn waiting for his friends: if Elaida decides to search for him it won’t take longer than two days for the Queen’s Guards to comb through every inn in Caemlyn. It is decided that if Rand can’t get Mat out of bed, the innkeeper will send for a healer woman named Mother Grubb. He promises to pay for her services and to provide the boys with horses—when Rand thanks him Master Gill says that Thom was always a good friend to him, and if Thom would help them, so will he.
Loial asks again if he can accompany Rand, and this time Rand accepts his company, although he responds harshly when Loial again observes that Rand is ta’veren and that the Pattern weaves itself around him him and he stands in the heart of it. But just as they are making plans, a serving girl comes into the library and and tells Master Gill that there are Whitecloaks in the inn. When Gill goes out to meet them, the Whitecloaks tell him that they are looking for Darkfriends, specifically a boy from the Two Rivers, but Master Gill cuts him off, insulted, stating that there are no Darkfriends in his inn and that all of his guests are good Queen’s men. The leader observes that everyone knows where the Queen stands, her “and her Tar Valon witch.” At that every person in the room stands, and although the Whitecloaks continue to make veiled threats, they realize they are outnumbered and try to look dignified as they leave, Master Gill giving them the count of three to get out.
Gill asks what Rand did to stir up trouble with Elaida and the Whitecloaks, but Rand insists that they have no reason to be after them. Just then, the serving girl returns to tell them that there is a lady in the kitchens asking for Rand and Mat by name; Gill is concerned that it’s Elayne herself, but Rand, having never mentioned Mat to anyone, realizes who it must be and races to the kitchens. There he finds them: Moiraine and Lan, Nynaeve, Perrin, and Egwene. He introduces everyone to Master Gill, giving Lan and Moiraine their true names, as Gill already knows the full story. He is impressed and respectful towards the Warder and the Aes Sedai, and they get into a conversation about all the cats that Gill keeps in the inn. He admits that there is a problem with rats, and Moiraine offers to keep them away from the street. Gill accepts, as Nynaeve asks about Mat and Rand admits that he’s sick.
They leave the Aes Sedai in the kitchens as Rand takes them up the back way. Egwene described the way Moiraine was drawn to the inn when they got close, and Rand tells them about Thom’s death at the hands of the Fade. Then they get up to the room, where Mat responds to seeing his friends merely by asking how he could know if any of them were really who they appeared to be. He observes that Perrin has certainly changed, and Rand is surprised when Perrin, who has been keeping his eyes downcast the entire time, seems struck by the barb and sits down to put his head in his hands. Mat goes for Nynaeve next, observing that she’s a pretty woman, but not supposed to think of herself as that, and the fact that she does now scares her. He observes that Egwene is pretty too, and that is not all that she and Nynaeve share now.
Just then Moraine comes in, takes one look at Mat, and drags Nynaeve forcibly away from him. She orders all of them to stay well back, and studies Mat intently. When she touches him he whips out the ruby-hilted dagger and tries to stab her, but Lan stops it, the two standing locked together, Lan’s hand on Mat’s wrist, Mat still straining to reach Moiraine with the dagger, as Rand explains that he did not know that Mat kept anything from Shadar Logoth until after the party was separated. Moiraine tells him that Fades and Trollocs and even some Darkfriends would have been drawn to the feeling of Mashadar, sensing it from miles away, even, and being drawn to find it.
Rand tells her of the rumors of shapes outside the city, wondering if they are Trollocs, and Lan interjects that of course they are Trollocs, and Fades will be there too, and that they are amassing numbers to attack the city. “You three have escaped them too long. It looks as if you’ve brought a new Trolloc War to Caemlyn, sheepherder.”
Everyone is aghast, though Moiraine tells them that if they can get out of the city they can still prevent it. Perrin suddenly observes that it would be better if they were all dead; that they bring pain and suffering to people wherever they go. Moiraine stops Nynaeve from answering, turning to Perrin herself.
“What do you think to gain, for yourself or anyone else, by dying?”, the Aes Sedai asked. Her voice was level, yet sharp. “If the Lord of the Grave has gained as much freedom to touch the Pattern as I fear, he can reach you dead more easily than alive, now. Dead, you can help no one, not the people who have helped you, not your friends and family back in the Two Rivers. The Shadow is falling over the world, and none of you can stop it dead.”
When Perrin looks up at her, Rand is shocked to see the yellow in his eyes.
Moiraine turns her attention back to Mat, still trying to reach her with the dagger as Lan continues to hold him back. She explains that the evil that killed Shadar Logoth tainted every pebble of the city, that it taints the dagger and now it taints Mat, too. As he carried the dagger with him outside of the walls of Shadar Logoth, the suspicion and hatred that Mashadar engenders would have risen and fallen in him as his true self fought with the taint. But now, she says, the battle is almost done and the true Mat is almost defeated. Once he is, he will either die or spread the plague of Mashadar everywhere; just as one scratch of the dagger would be enough to infect someone, so too will only a few minutes in Mat’s presence be enough.
She orders all of them to leave the room and takes out her angreal, saying that she hopes, for the sake of the world, that she is not too late to help him.
Keeping out of sight down the back way, Rand leads the subdued party to the library, almost forgetting that the sight of Loial, now familiar to him, would set everyone aback. He makes introductions, and Loial is his usual polite self as everyone is amazed to see a real live Ogier. They all sit, and Perrin asks Loial about the steddings, and the Ogier is happy to talk at length as the others listen and Rand dwells on his own thoughts. Eventually, the door to the library opens and Moiraine is there, with her hand on Mat, who looks amazingly like his old self.
Mat makes a hesitant apology, explaining that he doesn’t remember much after Whitebridge, and that his memory gets even more hazy after that. He doesn’t remember arriving in Caemlyn at all, and his words are shaking and uncertain until he finally offers, “You can’t hold a man to blame for what he does when he’s crazy, can you?”
With him sounding like his old self again everyone relaxes and begins to talk, but Rand notices the way Mat touches his coat as he sits down, and Moiraine admits softly that Mat still has the dagger. She explains that the connection between them has grown too strong for her to undo entirely; she has removed the taint from him and dampened the way that it will attract servants of the Dark One, but that Mat will get worse again eventually unless he receives proper help in Tar Valon.
Then it is time to plan, and Rand explains to Moiraine that he told Loial that he could join them, which she accepts. She sends Lan to stand guard outside and begins to address the group, explaining that they can’t stay in Caemlyn, because the Dark One eyes are in the city. She has cast a ward to keep the rats at bay, hopefully they can be gone before he even realizes that there is a section of the city they no longer enter. But she can’t ward against men without drawing the attention of Fades, and the Whitecloaks are still looking for Perrin and Egwene.
When Rand admits that he thought they were looking for him, he ends up having to explain what happened to him earlier, although he doesn’t do it very clearly or well. “I didn’t do anything wrong,” he finishes plaintively, which Mat points out is what he always says, while Egwene asks who Elayne is. Perrin grouses that all they got to meet were Tinkers and Whitecloaks, which draw Loial into talking about how Tinkers asked to learn songs from the Ogier, and about how they sometimes come to some of the steddings. He goes on to ask Moiraine about another man who once sought refuge in a stedding, one who was almost to the point of death, though he did not seem sick or wounded and got better as soon as he was in the stedding. While he was staying with the Ogier he told them that he had a message that he needed to take to Tar Valon—that “the Dark One intended to blind the Eye of the World, and slay the Great Serpent, kill time itself.”
Perrin and Egwene pipe up to tell the story they learned from the Tinkers, the story of the Aiel woman who fought through her dying moments to tell them that Sightblinder intended to blind the Eye of the World. Moiraine seems struck by both these stories, Rand thinks he can see her mind racing, and just then Perrin interjects that they need to tell Moiraine their secret, that it’s important now. Rand is reluctant, but the three agree, and he explains to Moiraine that they have been having dreams, and in one of them Ba’alzamon told Rand that the Eye of the World would never serve him. Perrin and Mat heard the same.
Moiraine is not angry with them, which surprises the boys, but she isn’t happy either. She explains that each time Ba’alzamon touches them he makes it easier to reach them again, and warns them of the danger of being bound to him. She names servants of the Dark One who could perform such feats, and none of them had anything like the strength of their master. Rand asks what they can do, and Moiraine tells them that staying close to her will protect them a little, but that they will need more than that. Perrin observes that he has already found his protection.
To Rand and Mat, she says that they must deny him. If they surrender, even for a moment, they will have “a string” tied to their heart, but if they deny him, his power will fail. They explain a little more of their dreams, but Rand is careful not to mention one name that he recognizes now, although he didn’t at the time—Logain. Meanwhile, Loial observes that all three boys are ta’veren. Moiraine agrees, and observes that sometimes the ta’veren force the Pattern to bend to them, while other times the Pattern pushes the ta’veren onto a needed path. She isn’t sure if the information they have learned is a trap or a warning, but either way, they must go to the Eye of the World and warn the Green Man at once. Despite everyone’s shock at her suggestion that they must all journey to the Blight, Moiraine continues, explaining that there isn’t even time to travel the weeks that it would take to reach the Blight, but that an unexpected answer has been offered to them. She asks Loial if he knows the Ways, and if he could find a path to Fal Dara, once known as Mafal Dadaranell. Loial replies uneasily that he can.
“Then you can find the path for us,” Moiraine said. “A curious turn, indeed. When we can neither stay nor leave by any ordinary means, I learn of a threat to the Eye, and in the same place there is one who can take us there in days. Whether it is the Creator, or fate, or even the Dark One, the Pattern has chosen our path for us.”
But Loial says that he will not do as Moiraine asks, that if they enter the Ways they will all die, or be swallowed by the Shadow. He explains that the Ways were created as a gift for the Ogier so that they could travel from stedding to stedding when the physical world was in upheaval due to the Breaking. The Ogier sheltered men with the Power who were going mad from the taint, and although the men could not stand to be separated from the Power forever, they made the Ways in gratitude before they left, and gifted the Ogier with a talisman, which they used to grow more Ways connecting rediscovered steddings, as well as the groves grown for the Ogiers that were working on building new cities for men. There is still a Waygate at Fal Dara, where Moiraine wants to go, although the original city was destroyed during the Trolloc Wars.
Egwene asks how the men were able to build the Ways using the Power, if the Power cannot be touched in a stedding and outside of it the men would be once again subject to the taint. Loial explains that this is why they cannot use the Ways, that over time they became dark and dangerous, with some Ogier disappearing, and others coming out raving with terror at something they called Machin Shin, the Black Wind, unable to recall what they experienced, but never quite the same again, even with Aes Sedai healing. Thus the elder Ogier forbid any to use the Ways again, and Loial does not see why Moiraine should have him break their edict.
Moiraine tells them that every living creature is at war with the Dark One, and that there is enough power in the Eye to undo the Dark One’s prison. Matt asks what they can possibly do, and she tells them that everything they have learned and the way they have come together is not change but fate, the Pattern driving the three ta’veren, and they can fight it if they like, run and hide and not be saved, or they can try. They can have the Pattern woven around the three of them where the danger lies, at the Eye of the World.
One by one, first Rand, then Perrin and Mat, Egwene, Nynaeve, and finally Loial all agree to go, and Loial agrees to guide them along the Ways.
During the planning, Rand takes Egwene aside and tries to convince her not to go. He expects her to be annoyed but she just thanks him, and reminds him that Moiraine said that both Egwene and Nynaeve are part of the Pattern, too. She asks who Elayne is, but when he tells the truth, she gets upset at him, thinking he’s being sarcastic. Rand thinks that he’ll have to ask Perrin, as he knows how to talk to women. (Narrator: “He doesn’t.”)
Master Gill is enlisted to arrange everything they need to travel, and then everyone heads to bed, Rand somewhat disturbed by the wrongness he can now feel from the dagger. But when he dreams, he sees a door, and despite his best efforts to deny it, he can’t banish the dream. Instead he finds the flame and the void, the way Tam taught him, and opens the door. He finds himself in the same room as his first dream, with the one side open to the air. On the table, though, he finds three clay figures, faceless, but one with a wolf by its side, one holding a small jeweled dagger, and one bearing a heron-marked sword. Alarmed, he jerks his head up, catching sight of himself in a mirror, his reflection a blur, but more distinct that it has been in his dreams before now.
Ba’alzamon appears, telling Rand that he has hidden for too long, but won’t for much longer. Rand does his best to deny him, but Ba’alzamon only replies that Rand always does at first, only to eventually kneel before him, or to die wishing he still had the strength to kneel. He says too that even some Aes Sedai serve him, the Black Ajah, and that maybe even those who seem to be helping Rand are really his. Rand says he’s lying, calls him the Father of Lies and denies him again, but Ba’alazamon demands that he kneel and serve him, or die, the last work echoing louder and louder in the room. Rand screams to block out the sound and knocks over the clay figures to smush them beneath his feet, but the echo continues on and on, destroying any calm in his mind and pulling him down until he falls out of bed and wakes up.
He hears Mat yelling in his sleep and quickly wakes him, but Mat admits that Ba’alzamon knows who he is now, because he picked up the figure with the dagger, and then Ba’alzamon said “So that’s who you are” and the figure gained Mat’s face. Rand realizes that his palm hurts and discovers a splinter of wood in it. He pulls it out, panicked, and it vanishes the second it leaves his hand.
Moiraine comes to wake them, telling them they have slept for four hours although to Mat it seems like not even one. Realizing something is amiss, she asks what happens, Mat admitting that the Dark One knows his face, and Rand showing her the blood on his palm from the splinter. She covers the wound with her thumb and after a moment’s piercing cold it is healed. She tells them they must hurry and that time grows short….
Of course Mat picked up the figure. Of course he did! You would think he’d have learned his lessons about picking things up, but I guess he just can’t help himself. Somebody should glue that boy’s hands into his pockets, although I guess that wouldn’t do much good in a dream. (MITTENS FOR MAT! – Ed.)
I am so happy to have reached the point of getting an explanation for Mat’s deterioration. I must say, I got so caught up trying to decide whether I thought that he was being possessed by Mordeth that it’s been a while since I thought about Mashadar on its own, and I don’t think it occurred to me to ponder that it, too, might have left a taint on objects inside Shadar Logoth. But Mat’s behavior exactly fits that explanation, his rampant suspicion of strangers trying to help them, and even his suspicion of Rand himself, make a lot of sense now. But as I observed at the time, being scared and suspicious isn’t in itself an unreasonable reaction to being in Mat’s position, so I suppose neither I nor Rand can really be blamed for not getting a better sense of the real problem.
Even more interesting to me is the fact that Rand didn’t seem aware of anything wrong with the dagger before Moiraine told him about it, but as he was trying to fall asleep he appeared to sense it. Is this just his mind being wary because he knows about it now, or has his ability to sense such things increased? I’m thinking of Perrin’s reaction to Byar’s cloak last week, too, and how it’s unclear if his discomfort is just psychological or if his wolf senses have kicked up another notch. Both Perrin and Rand are moving closer to the identities that fate has waiting for them, and although Perrin appears to have accepted his and Rand has not, both of them are growing and changing. Perhaps some day they’ll bond over the experience, who knows.
But it’s not just Mat feeling the effects of the dagger; it’s actually drawing evil to it! No wonder Rand and Mat were so dogged at every step, with Darkfriends just showing up while they were eating breakfast or hiding out in a barn. That must have been exactly how Gode found him; I wasn’t sure how he could know what they looked like, and now we learn that he didn’t even need to. If any Darkfriend had truly given their soul over the Ba’alzamon, it’s Gode.
Mat and Rand are pretty impressive, I think, for making it to Caemlyn despite all that extra danger. But Mat isn’t cured yet, and now we know for sure that, sooner or later, they’re going to end up in Tar Valon.
I still don’t exactly understand what the Eye of the World is, so it’ll be interesting to finally get some more detail about it. Of course I assumed I would, given the title of the book, and there are only so many pages left. But I’m even more interested in the Green Man. There is a great deal of lore relating to that name that Jordan could be drawing from for the character so that will be really interesting to analyze when we get there. Personally, I’m hoping the Eye is guarded by a Robin Hood figure.
I loved the dramatic irony of the Whitecloaks asking about “a boy from the Two Rivers” and Master Gill cutting him off before he can mention Egwene. As a reader, it’s sometimes little things like that that give me the most pleasure. And speaking of Master Gill, he’s really a badass, isn’t he? From his steadfast loyalty to the Queen in the face of increasing discontent, to his hospitality towards Loial, to his devotion to his friendship with Thom and therefore to Rand and all his friends, this man really is tough. He’s still convinced Thom’s alive too—I noticed he refers to the gleeman in the present tense—and I am going to trust his judgement on this one. And in everything else, for that matter. If anyone can get Moiraine and company out of the inn and safely to wherever that Waygate is, it’s Master Gill.
Elaida hates rats, Gawyn said. Well, we already know from Lan back in Baerlon that the Dark One uses carrion eaters, including rats, as his spies, and now it seems like the two Aes Sedai have confirmed to us that this is definitely happening in Caemlyn. I wonder if they could be drawn by the dagger’s power as well—it seems like the power of Mashadar is a little more geared to something that has, or at least had, a soul though. And anyway, it’s a trap to try to put too many things down to the dagger. Caemlyn could probably find its way to a similar fate as Shadar Logoth all on its own, what with all the discontent and suspicion, and the two factions, red and white, ready to fight each other at the drop of a hat. It is unclear to me if those who wear white are showing direct support of the Whitecloaks; they blame the Queen’s alliance with the Aes Sedai as the reason for all the bad things that are happening, and the Whitecloaks also deem Aes Sedai as dangerous witches who may be in league with the Dark One. I suppose they could technically be correct, now that Ba’alzamon has told Rand about the Black Ajah. I don’t think Morgase is a Darkfriend or anything, but Elaida could possibly be Black Ajah in secret. I’m inclined to think not, and why would she keep the rats away if she was, but there’s certainly something going on there. And she didn’t tell Morgase everything about Rand for a reason.
Meanwhile, Rand continues to make little forays into pitting his strength against Ba’alzamon’s. Knowing that he’s the Dragon Reborn, it’s interesting to watch when one can assume how much strength and knowledge he will go on to gain in the many books that follow this one. The idea of defying the devil or a devil-like being is an old one, and there are lots of references I could draw on, but for some reason I just kept imagining the showdown between Jareth and Sarah in Jim Henson’s The Labyrinth. Not the most serious analogy, but it is still an illustration of what I think of as a symbolic moment about free will; the adversary only has power over you if you give it to him. Of course it’s not going to be as simple for Rand as it was for Sarah, and Ba’alzamon is not nearly as sexy as the Goblin King.
Next week we venture into something much more frightening than the Goblin Kingdom, though in some ways I suppose it does resemble a labyrinth. Chapters 44 and 45 will cover the party’s journey through the Ways to Fal Dara, as we the readers journey that much closer to this book’s end.
Through dangers untold, and hardships unnumbered Sylas K Barrett has fought his way here to Week 15, beyond the exposition, to take back the action that you have stolen.
*chokes on spoilers* I’m impressed by your ability to make side comments that are utterly hilarious but only in context of books you haven’t read.
Savor this moment of honesty and openness among our heroes. It will be a long time till the next. And if you figure out what the Eye of the World is please tell me!
Alternate article titles for people who have finished the seeies
“A mere sliver of the big picture gets explained in Robert Jordan’s The Eye of the World part 15.”
”The very tip of the Tip is the Iceberg is revealed in Robert Jordan’s The Eye of the World part 15”
Oh dear, I’m going to have to put MITTENS FOR MAT! on one of my message board profiles now.
@3 – you aren’t kidding!!
How about “A Preview of Things that are Really Big, Until Jordan Seems to Change How Things Work Going Forward in The Wheel of Time, Part 15”
Nice job, as always.
Now that both Loial and Moiraine have opined/confirmed that all three boys are ta’veren, we can skip the copious white spoiler spacing that has been going on and start discussing potential impacts from that uniquely Jordanian condition in real time. Yeah!
Yes, Gill, the kindly innkeeper, is shown to be a serious bad-ass. Nice of you to notice. I also love the characterizations of the inn folk around him (Langwhin, Raney, the Cook, Gilda).
Mat is seriously creepy in his knife-affected state. His comments to both Nynaeve and Egwene are both icky and potentially perceptive regarding how both of them may be viewing themselves in light of their changing lives.
I love the Moiraine-Loial discussion in both large beats and small beats (such as when Loial thnks he’s off the hook from entering the Ways when he doesn’t recognize the name Fal Dara and then Moiraine is able to give the historically established name that he does know).
Love your excitement about possibly meeting and learning more about the Green Man. Note that you predicted Rand would encounter the Green Man in one of your earlier chapters – good for you!
Oh the irony!
Rand finally accepts his fate at the end of TDR, but Perrin pretty much spends the entire series railing against his.//
Each time through tEotW I am impressed that even as Mat gradually falls more and more deeply under the dagger’s influence, he never really grows hostile or abusive toward Rand. His verbal abuse of the other duopotamians and his attack on Moraine show how far gone he is – but never hostility toward Rand. Not sure of any deep significance, but am glad their friendship is beyond even the dagger’s power to erode.
Speaking of bad-asses, how about Lan grabbing Matt’s wrist and just stopping the dagger dead, like it hit a stone wall? He even converses with the rest while continuing to hold off Matt’s attack one handed. There are many bad ass characters in The Wheel of Time, but there is only one Lan.
Interesting question on if the white color of those unhappy with Morgase corresponds to the “White”cloaks. That would be fun if it did. Red and white are the colors of Andor, right? So that’s why the two were picked, but that would be interesting if that’s why one color went one way. I guess the red could stay with the queen with the added significance of Elaida being Red Ajah and the red side supporting the Aes Sedai involvement.
It’s kinda like how did it get decided that democrats were blue and republicans red? The red and blue together being choices is obvious, but why the specific pairings has an interesting background. In the 20th century, republicans were generally represented with blue and democrats were red, mirroring Europe where red represented “left” politics and blue “right”, but in the 2000 election the colors were standardized by those covering election night with the colors reversed, and since then it has stuck. Colors are fun.
I’m actually fairly surprised you didn’t go into more detail about the how’s and why’s of Mat’s increased powers of perception from the dagger. For me, that was one of the coolest parts of the whole series. Where else do we get a moment when one of our heroes receives so much clarity regarding the inner turmoil and development of a fellow Companion that it almost outstrips the knowledge of the character in question. I wish Mat had retained that power. It certainly would have aided him moving forward. Especially with a certain someone. Y’all know of whom I speak.
One fiction (and non-fiction) cliche that drives me nuts is the, “Bad people keep hurting those close to me so it’s my fault, but if I just give up then they’ll stop.” //I never noticed how early that started for Perrin!!!// I love Moiraine’s response to Perrin’s statement that you quoted. We haven’t had a viewpoint chapter from her, but I can only imagine how peeved she must be at these teenagers. Here she is, trying to be a warrior for the light for years, and she knows it’s not ultimately up to her if the light wins. And then, the people that it seems like it will depend on distrust her, don’t listen, don’t confide in her, and complain about their situation and her actions ALL THE TIME.
So Mittens for Mat, and a Vacation for Moiraine.
@12 tbgh
//Worst. Vacation. Ever.//
Ahhh, poor Loial, he so wanted to accompany Rand, now he will face the Way’s and Machin Shin. His curiosity knows no bounds….and, GREEN MAN!!
Another great post. I do love how so much gets explained here – as you read on in the series you will realize just how much more there is to understand, but this book is my favorite personally because although it leaves many mysteries, it also explains many of them and has a clear beginning and end (not THE beginning and end, but A beginning and end… sorry, I couldn’t resist!).
One small nitpick – I believe it is Egwene who asks about how the male Aes Sedai created the Ways. Moiraine would likely have already known that.
Egwene, not Moiraine. Moiraine probably knows the answer to that question.
@padan_fain (#11) Yeah, I wasn’t sure what to make of it, tbh. To me it sort of felt like a generic Evil power, you know, like something Ba’alzamon would have said. The perception of people’s fears and the things they felt that were weaknesses. The most interesting thing about it is the information the reader gains about how the characters are feeling. I did mean to mention that this feels like confirmation that Nynaeve is developing feelings for Lan, though!
@whitespine (#10) Yeah, I think that’s right about the red and white both belonging to Andor. It did seem like the descriptions of the guards and the procession bringing in Logain heavily favored red, though.
Yep, that’s good ‘ol Perrin, accepting his fate stoically and never questioning it.
I think I commented on this before, but it’s funny that throughout the series, each of the boys thinks the other two are Casanovas.
\\Does anyone else picture the Green Man as the Jolly Green Giant. I have since the first time I read the series. I know they talk about all the vines an what not coming out of him and I picture them, but it always goes back to JGG.\\
@19 Dalton24 // Absolutely! You can almost hear the, “HO,HO,HO!” //
Dalton24 @19: Re: the whited-out portion. Well, now I do. :-)
@9
Truer words were never spoken.
@19: I might find the running joke less tiresome if any of the boys ever gave us memories or details about the other one(s) being “good with” girls or women. We hardly see them interact with women in the Two River before their adventure begins, and none of them have been especially smooth, seductive, or even non-awkward since then. ///Yet, that is. Mat will be, but will still continue complaining that he isn’t, IIRC///
Oh, we get so much from these chapters! Definitely felt this was the calm in the eye of the storm. The jubilation that they were back together and that the trials had ended, before (metaphorically) looking up to see the swirling clouds above them, and the imminent trailing edge.
Something that struck me since the first time I read tEotW:
I really empathise with Perrin’s fear and doubt here. Harking back a couple of ‘parts’ to the discussion of Nynaeve (and Perrin) coming out. I don’t think this shows he has accepted what he is becoming, so much as he knows there’s nothing he can do about the Wolf in him. Nobody said he has to like that knowledge.
Indeed, Perrin here is not just despondent, but actively suffering with what looks very much like Depression. As a character, he shows a strong protective instinct, but he’s been continually failing to protect anyone throughout this book. He believes he failed to protect Egwenne when he thought about killing her before the crows did, he certainly failed to protect her from the Whitecloaks, Elyas and Hopper only got hurt/killed because they were helping Egwenne and him, and he’s at least vaguely aware of the trauma his friends have gone through, not to mention the fates of the other people that have got caught between him and Ba’alzamon.
I read this book not long after I came out and a number of people were physically and/or emotionally hurt as a result of it, or rather, as the result of other peoples homophobia (it took me a long time to conceptualise those as separate things). I also have life-long depression and at that time was suffering with severe suicidal urges that hospitalised me, more than once, and I’m not ashamed to say I cried when I read Moiraine’s rant about how Perrin’s death would serve nothing good. I cried because I knew exactly what Perrin was feeling in that moment.
Instead of practical support with my problems, I received apathy or dismissal from most people. Either my problems were self inflicted as a result of coming out, or ignored because nobody knew what to do about them. Moiraine’s speech, though, was strongly reminiscent of what my father said to me at the time: he wasn’t interested in helping me with my problems, only in how those problems inconvenienced everyone else. Moiraine wasn’t interested in offering Perrin help with his problems, only in what he would do for the war effort.
Both Moiraine’s speech to Perrin and my father’s to me were intended to make us feel as if we had agency; that we were not so much capable of making things better for others, as that we had a duty to at least try. Both speeches fell flat for the very same reason: Perrin and I already knew that death would not make things better, but suicide isn’t selfless, it’s selfish. Both of us were struggling with a crisis of identity and being the ’cause’ of other people’s suffering, however indirectly.
When my father demanded I stop inconveniencing the family with my ‘drama’ I found other, less visible ways to hurt myself. Not because I wanted to make things better for them, but because I knew I was the problem in the first place. When Perrin agrees to go to the Eye, it’s not because it’s the right thing to do (even if it is). It’s because if he dies in the attempt, he’ll stop being the cause of anyone else’s suffering.
I started the series around the same time you published the first article and I’m almost done with book 4! Pick up the pace so I can have some some to compare notes with lol.
I’m loving the Labyrinth reference and most especially the by-line. We’ll done!
If you think things have been complex up till now, wait till you start into the other books. Best series I have ever read.
@19 (Small spoiler until end of book 1.) // I always pictured The Green Man as a bigger and more benevolent version of DCs SwampThing. //
@25, I’ve been posting on the Re-read by Leigh Butler.
These re-caps are becoming dangerous for my health. It’s creating this really strong desire to re-read a series I’ve already read like 5 times, which will take several months and suck up all of my time -_-. But I’m really enjoying seeing TEOTW through a fresh set of eyes. I first read it when I was like 13 or 14 years old, and one of the things that I find really striking about it is what a chameleon this book is. When I read it again 10+ years later, I was amazed how my perspective on the characters shifted – how the motivations of Nynaeve, Lan and Moirane suddenly became clear, and how young the boys, and Egwene really were. I wasn’t as savvy to foreshadowing back then, so things like Rand’s early channeling went over my head :)
I posted a comment 2 weeks ago, but it was mostly whited-out by the ever-vigilant Mods because Perrin hadn’t been officially revealed to be ta’veren yet; and I had mistakenly thought you had already figured that out. I’m going to re-post that comment here in slightly (okay… not so slightly) edited format so that you’ll know what it’s about again, hoping that it stays black (or “no colour”, as the Tor comment box colour widget calls the standard text colour) this time.
You asked back then about the rather fortuitous happenchance of Moiraine beginning her Lightning attack just when Nyneave needed it the most. You wondered about whether women who can channel have some sort of psychic link to every other woman who can channel. Someone pointed out that Nyneave’s need and Moiraine’s attack coinciding was merely fortuitous timing, as there is no connection between women who can channel…. except, rarely, with the first other saidar-user they get into a close relationship with, such as with Nyneave and her best friend and protégé Egwene. And such a link only works in very close range, and does nothing more than being able to tell where the other person is.
I would like to point out now that Perrin was also in that same camp. This means that the whole thing was also very likely to have been simply “cuz ta’veren”.
Which is an utterly brilliant invention by Robert Jordan by the way. You know all those coincidences that occur which allow the plot to happen in any fiction book / series ever? As long as any of our 3 boys are even tangentially involved, Jordan (and later Sanderson) has the perfect excuse explanation for it, and it makes sense within the setting — as in: we the readers can form a picture of what, approximately, is happening — to boot.
Yeah. Elyas and Loial were my favorite WoT characters at theis point in my first read, but Basel Gill is made of badass goodness.
Ironic Line of the Day: ///“I don’t stand at the heart of anything.” How about the Heart of the Stone of Tear? :-p ///
Also: ///Don’t worry, Moiraine. The boys are being pursued by Ishamael, not his vastly more powerful master. :-p ///
///At one point, the Reread (or Redux) featured discussion of the discrepancy on the presence of Warders guarding Logain if all of the other AS in the city are Red Ajah, as Moiraine claims, and Reds don’t have Warders. I forget how it was resolved.////
Neuxue Quote of the Day:
Nynaeve is making the supply list. What’s the bet it looks something like:
Common sense
More sticks
No shirts for Lan
What do teddy bears even eat
I don’t mean to say that Master Gill isn’t badass, but note how Gill himself expresses amazement over how he drove the Whitecloaks away. He just did something that he wouldn’t have expected of himself. Experienced readers know why.
@Faculty Guy (#8):
I’m sure that’s because Rand and Mat were together and helped each other the whole time. It was pretty much the two of them against the world all the way from Whitebridge to Caemlyn. I guess it’s easier for Mashadar to sow suspicion towards absent friends. If it had instead been Perrin and Mat who travelled together, then I think Mat would eventually have trusted nobody but Perrin, and would have found something hurtful to say to Rand when they met again.
@30 me too! I really don’t have the time or energy to reread the whole series again but I am so tempted right now. So tempted. I guess that’s a tribute to the quality of Sylas’ posts (and obviously, the books themselves). Well, it has been two years…so maybe I should…?
@9 so true. Lan was one character I loved from nearly the start and never wavered on. Most of the others, I either slowly grew to love along the way, or got irritated with somewhere along the way for a time (a very short time, in Moiraine’s case). But Lan, he had me at Mashiara (if not before), and never let me down.
~lakesidey
I’ve started a re-listen to these books which keeps in step with Barrett’s tempo. I combine listening to WoT with a re-listen to Harry Dresden during my commute to work in order to not get ahead of Sylas’ postings. I never listened to the WoT audiobooks before and am enjoying the experience of three (2WoT, 1 HDF) great narrators.
With the slow speed of this read-through I probably will be able to cover several other book series in tandem with the WoT books.
That has nothing to do with a relationship between channelers, it’s simply the connection Ny has with people she Healed. The other person doesn’t have to be a channeler.
@birgit(#36)
Are you sure? //Because I distinctly recall it being revealed in New Spring that Moiraine has a similar bond with Siuan — which, unlike most such bonds, has never dissipated (I forgot whether Nyneave’s and Egwene’s bond ever dissipates) — and that has nothing to do with one of them Healing the other.// That (the Spoiler in white) is a large part of what I was basing that bit on, anyway. The other large part of course being what Moiraine told Nyneave, but that’s rather vague which is why I pulled from the other thing too.
Gagging over the Labyrinth reference… and wow, I never thought about it. <3
//I don’t remember any magical bond between Siuan and Moiraine. They are pillow friends and do everything together, but that isn’t a magical bond.//
@12 tbgh (#12)
Maybe it had something to do with the fact that she was condescending, secretive, and manipulative—not exactly a recipe for trust and compliance. //I think she got the vacation she deserved: an extended visit to Sindhol.//
@40 Ninja
Secretive I’ll grant you. She’s learned to keep secrets after dodging the Black Ajah for decades. Although telling them one of them is probably the Dragon Reborn is a good way to make them run away.
She makes sure they know she’s in charge, because this is too important to coddle their feelings. Could she have handled them better? Maybe, but I don’t think anything she did was going to keep Mat and Rand out of trouble given their personalities and the channeling sickness. And I don’t think she was any more condescending than any adult is to teenagers. She doesn’t belittle them. She just tells them what to do. It’s really the reputation of Aes Sedai more than her actions that make them not trust her. Look at Rand’s inner monologue. It’s always about what they say about Aes Sedai. The only act of hers that makes them not trust her is the sinking of the ferry. And that is necessary and doesn’t fit any of your adjectives above. To this point in the story, she doesn’t even have to manipulate them. She is straightforward with her instructions and expects to be obeyed.
@birgit (#39)
So, let’s examine the current state of affairs: I distinctly recall that //Moiraine and Siuan were stated to have a saidar-related bond similar to Nyneave’s and Egwene’s; in fact I recall it so distinctly because I remember thinking to myself that it was one of Jordan’s clever ways to shed more light on something that had been a plot point but not really explored from a Character perspective in one of the early books — The Eye of the World in this case — and that, from a narrative perspective, it therefore made perfect sense that it would be included in New Spring, even though despite that I never saw it coming. Plus the bit about such bonds usually fading over time, but Moiraine’s and Siuan’s mutual bond staying as strong as it ever was, which I mentioned in my previous comment. From an in-Universe perspective, I also remember thinking that the bond probably formed because they were pillow-friends — although its nature is obviously distinct from the pillow-friends bond — and that the fact that it had never faded was probably due to the fact that Moiraine and Siuan had always continued to love one another as strongly as they had when the saidar-bond first formed. And that that realization put the entire Moiraine-Siuan relationship in an entirely new light, and in an utterly brilliant way, with very subtle writing by Jordan, to boot. Finally, I remember being very excited about all the above, for reasons that should be apparent by now.//
But that puts us into quite a bit of a bind, doesn’t it? As explained in white above, I have very good reasons for believing my recollections to be correct, as me telling myself things that never happened in the books would constitute a legitimate case of the Mandela Effect at this point. On the other hand, you are convinced that what I said is entirely made up. Seeing as I am not going to meticulously read the book in question again to see if what I was talking about is actually in there, and I am sure you won’t go through that much trouble for a Tor-site comment dispute either, there is no way either of us can figure out which one of us is correct.
jadis666 @42: The problem with your argument is that the situation is not symmetric: birgit is saying that she doesn’t remember any evidence and you’re saying that there is evidence. Even if birgit wrote back and said “I just re-read NS and didn’t see anything like that”, would you believe her, or would you just think she wasn’t careful enough and missed it? You, on the other hand, have the ability to quote the exact text that either says it straight out or seems to indicate it, and we can then judge it.
FWIW, I just did a quick search of NS (the search function on the Kindle app isn’t great, but it’s a lot better than re-reading the entire book!), and I couldn’t find any evidence of a more-than-natural bond between them, but I could easily just not have hit on the right search term.
TL;DR: When people disagree about whether something exists or not, the onus of proof is (fairly or unfairly) on the person who says it does exist, as the other person can’t prove their position.
Jadis666 + Birgit: I’m going to go with “You’re both right and both wrong.”
I don’t specifically remember what Birgit is saying, but I don’t specifically remember it not being there either. I think this may be an interpretation issue: // I certainly remember my own interpretation of Moiraine and Siuan’s relationship having been at least partly a romantic relationship, as being confirmed by NS: I had suspected it was anyway. // A good friend (though admittedly one normally oblivious to gender and sexual identity in others, and not necessarily a good sounding board for this reference) was entirely shocked and surprised by that when I mentioned it to him. He had never got that reference or insinuation.
I know RJ has been accused of handling non-heteronormative relationships badly, but actually, I think he was being a lot more subtle. He didn’t openly go ‘Here they are’, but then, real people don’t do that either – at least, most of us in those relationships don’t. For those looking for it, there’re plenty of subtle hints for all sorts of things, but they either rely heavily, or entirely on interpretation. I can’t think of any specific instances here, but this subtlety and interpret-ability certainly seems to me as applying to a lot of the WoT: be it relationships, magical bonds, or the nature of the OP and TP: It’s all left open, deliberately I think.
Late to the party, but, in re channeler bonds: I certainly do not think there is any bond like what Jadis666 is describing. I have never seen evidence of this, in New Spring or elsewhere.
//Moiraine and Siuan were definitely pillow-friends in the tower, but that’s it. There’s no stated One Power connection, and there’s nothing stating that they “continued to love one another as strongly” either. In fact, when Moiraine gets word about Siuan and the Tower Coup in TFOH Chapter 15, she does not show any grief, which is remarked upon by Egwene. No reunion occurred when Moiraine returned in AMOL. Instead, Moiraine and Siuan both fell in love with other people.
And note that we don’t see any evidence of a connection among channelers who channeled closely together when they were young, or even those who were involved romantically or actually in love. But we do see a connection between a healer and a heal-ee a number of times, and it is stated explicitly. By Occam’s razor, it’s the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions.//
I’ve been unable to keep up with posts over the past month or so, but I’ve really missed this series and am looking forward to catching up :)
I never thought about Mat’s comment to Nyneave having anything to do with Lan. Interesting :)
“but Elaida could possibly be Black Ajah in secret” – //yeah, that one kept us wondering for sooooo long//
@9 – here are many bad ass characters in The Wheel of Time, but there is only one Lan. – Yep
@11 -“Especially with a certain someone. Y’all know of whom I speak.” Do we?
@13 – Indeed
@18 – “red and white” – if it wasn’t already established, it is safe to say that the real world influence on Andor royalty and culture is England. Their flag is guess what “red and white”
I said in the previous chapter that that was one of my favorites in the series, well I must add that one as well. As I once mentioned, I like them councils (of the ring) a LOT.
@47: RE @11’s comment: // I’m guessing that would be her Royal pain-in-Matt’s-buttocks, Empress Fortuona. //. And hey, England isn’t the only place with a Queen, or Red-and-White flags… and hidden little communities of farmers (back in the day)… Wish Central London was a little more like Caemlyn’s Inner-City.
@24 Have you read the Stormlight Archive? There’s a character in it called Kaladin who is one of the most realistic portrayals of Depression you will ever see. I think you eill also grow to love characters like Shallan
No, unfortunately, the Stormlight Archive is still firmly entrenched in my to-read pile, untouched. It’s about six or seven books down from the top now, so progress (I add to the bottom) unfortunately, there are about fifty books in that pile and it only ever gets bigger. That’s without rereading WoT for this series!
@24 Can I offer you a virtual hug?
The constant referancing the author makes to the Lord of the rings is never completed. Clearly Lan is the Aragorn character, Fain smeagol/gollum, and the shadar logoth dagger a parallel to the 9 rings Sauron made for ‘mortal men’. Its a credit to Jordan that he can take so many familiar elements, (add in the Grail/horn quest, and the Norse archetypes)and still make a compelling enough story that he is able to keep people interested for 14 long books of material.